Brand New Fiat Palio S10 - Need Help with Fuel Consumption! (Attn: Drifter)

Dear Friends,

Yes, I know this is probably done to death. But the methods and the options available keep changing (and hopefully get better!). Thus - this thread.

I drive a completely brand new (part by part) S10. On petrol. Need I say more? It is burning a hole way too big in my pocket - to the limit that the thoughts of selling the car (on which I have spent more than 1,50,000 and a lot lot lot of time and energy and love) keep crossing my mind from time to time.

The family has two other cars - the humble Zen and Indica. And most times I end up taking them out instead of the yellow beast that sits pretty.

Now:

0. I get around 8-9 without AC. With AC I think its liters-per-kilometer and not kilometers-per-liter.
1. I already follow the best practices. I have read enough driving 'tips' on the internet. And I follow them by heart.
2. I am already considering a Free Flow Exhaust but I am not sure how much mileage gain can I expect.
3. I am also considering a K&N air filter but I am not sure how much gain will I get.
4. I have tried and uninstalled alternate fuels (LPG) and way too many niggles and issues. So let's keep that out.

I want to keep this car for another three years minimum. More importantly I want to be able to drive it. The car is practically brand new! A new engine, a new injection system, a new timing system, a new starter, a new power steering pump, a new steering, new suspensions, a new thermostat switch, a new radiator and fan assembly, a new clutch assembly and a lot of other minor new things! And it looks the part as well.

I want all members (and especially Drifter) and the experts to please chip in with everything they know about:

1. ECU Remap for our palios and what can I expect (to spend and to gain) from a remap? I checked with Race Dynamics and they have nothing on it.
2. Other 'real' devices that may work (not the make-your-car-run-on-water type scams).
3. Any other piece of alien-technology that may help!

Again - I have the 'driving tips' section covered. Do not need 'tips'.

Please help?

Thank you!

Santosh Pandey
Dwarka, New Delhi

First of all Santosh, I am sorry to hear your troubles. And trust me and can very wellfeel with you. I knw such experiences far too well.

Before I go into it any further I have to warn you: If you sell the S10 - I am going to kill you.

If you sell it to me - you might get away with a life sentence.


Now, a new engine will use quite a bit more fuel, than a well run in engine. For the first 5k+ kilimeters the consumption will drop.

Also I need to state that a new engine does not mean that it is in perfect working order, which is something not to leave out of the consideration, but is not a focal point right now.

The first thing I would look into is the water temp sensor (not to be confused with the ensor for the temp gauge/light). If the WTS is either faulty, not connected or has got a wiring problem the ECU will fuel constantly in warm running mode. This will increase fuel consumption dramatically. Whenever I take a cylinder head of, I will change the sensor to a new one as they are known to go on Fiats.

I do not want to write an endless list of things to check rather than going through your problem by process of elimination starting at the least costly of the common faults.

With the re-map and the exhaust hold your hrses. The re-map will not help when the car is in constant running warm mode as the table where the relevant changes are made when re-mapping are overridden.

An AIR will help. However, it will not solve the underlying issue and wouldn't warrant the expense in your particular situation.

The exhaust or part of it could be a contributing factor. Again, this is an expensive item. which also only should be upgraded when the cause is identified.

Please add some more information and a progress report.

Drifter,
Will it help if the ECU is hooked on to an ECU Scanner to see if all the sensors are working fine?
Santosh - where are you located? I am in Pune and can get you in touch with a good mechanic who can do the ECU scan, clear any/all errors.

Also, as Drifter said, a brand new engine will need time to settle down (run-in) and it will improve with time.
Also, if you have enough contacts, try hooking on the Stile 1.6 ECU which is supposed to take care of fuel efficiency (I get a steady 10.5/11 with A/C in city) instead of the stock.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,
Kaustubh

kaustubh_vaze wrote:

Drifter,
Will it help if the ECU is hooked on to an ECU Scanner to see if all the sensors are working fine?
Santosh - where are you located? I am in Pune and can get you in touch with a good mechanic who can do the ECU scan, clear any/all errors.

WTS is just a switch. So the Fiat tech has to use the brain to see it functioning. But sincea WTS doesn't cost the earth I would just buy one.

Nano fan wrote:

First of all Santosh, I am sorry to hear your troubles. And trust me and can very wellfeel with you. I knw such experiences far too well.

Before I go into it any further I have to warn you: If you sell the S10 - I am going to kill you.

If you sell it to me - you might get away with a life sentence.


Now, a new engine will use quite a bit more fuel, than a well run in engine. For the first 5k+ kilimeters the consumption will drop.

Also I need to state that a new engine does not mean that it is in perfect working order, which is something not to leave out of the consideration, but is not a focal point right now.

The first thing I would look into is the water temp sensor (not to be confused with the ensor for the temp gauge/light). If the WTS is either faulty, not connected or has got a wiring problem the ECU will fuel constantly in warm running mode. This will increase fuel consumption dramatically. Whenever I take a cylinder head of, I will change the sensor to a new one as they are known to go on Fiats.

I do not want to write an endless list of things to check rather than going through your problem by process of elimination starting at the least costly of the common faults.

With the re-map and the exhaust hold your hrses. The re-map will not help when the car is in constant running warm mode as the table where the relevant changes are made when re-mapping are overridden.

An AIR will help. However, it will not solve the underlying issue and wouldn't warrant the expense in your particular situation.

The exhaust or part of it could be a contributing factor. Again, this is an expensive item. which also only should be upgraded when the cause is identified.

Please add some more information and a progress report.

Thank you, Drifter, for the detailed reply :-) I am grateful.

1. No, I am not going to sell it. I want to live :-)

2. The engine had its first service at around 1500 or so kilometers. It is running on semi-synthetic Castrol Magnatec and has run about 3000 or so. Is this information useful at all?

3. How does one access the WTS? I hope the head doesnt need opening for this operation? And do you think it went bad or came bad with the new engine?

4. Newbie question: What is AIR?

This is what I have planned at this time:

1. Change the O2 sensor without thinking twice.
2. Check the silencer for any holes and get them mended at once.
3. If possible, fit a Palio 1.2 end can (on the lines of what Joe had suggested - constricting the airflow and giving O2 sensor more time to take measurements.
4. Change driving habits and stay in the 2000-2500 rpm range. Never let the FDCO and anti-knock mechanisms to take over.

So what do you think?

Thank you, again.

Santosh

kaustubh_vaze wrote:

Drifter,
Will it help if the ECU is hooked on to an ECU Scanner to see if all the sensors are working fine?
Santosh - where are you located? I am in Pune and can get you in touch with a good mechanic who can do the ECU scan, clear any/all errors.

Also, as Drifter said, a brand new engine will need time to settle down (run-in) and it will improve with time.
Also, if you have enough contacts, try hooking on the Stile 1.6 ECU which is supposed to take care of fuel efficiency (I get a steady 10.5/11 with A/C in city) instead of the stock.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,
Kaustubh

Hi Kaustubh,

Thank you for your valuable advise. I have the car scanned at Bosch and there were no errors. So that is out of the question.

Really, will a Stile ECU run my car as well? And help me getter fuel efficiency?

Thanks!

Santosh

I dont think my car has any major problem as such that needs fixing. I want my car to do better than what it was designed to do back in the day when a liter of gasoline would cost what a liter on bottled water costs today.

I am looking for a realistic gain at a realistic expense - Say a batting average of 12+ in the city and 15+ on highway, both with the AC on. And this at a cost of say 15k or so? Am I dreaming? is there any way at all?

Hi Santosh,

I have learnt from a person working in FPT that the only difference in the Stile and the old gen GTX is the ECU and the 5th gear.
The Stile ECUs are better programmed (newer generation) and tuned to give better fuel efficiency. You can always give it a try.

Also as Drifter said, if the WTS is just a switch and needs looking into, then probably a well trained and honest technician should be able to give you his diagnosis on the same. If you are getting 8-9 KMPL, your mileage has just about dropped by not more than 1 KMPL.

For getting 12 KMPL, you will need an AIR (Air Intake Revision) and a tuned exhaust designed by Drifter. I am myself waiting in line for the same since I own the Stile 1.6.

Regards,
Kaustubh

meetsantosh wrote:

Thank you, Drifter, for the detailed reply :-) I am grateful.

1. No, I am not going to sell it. I want to live :-)

2. The engine had its first service at around 1500 or so kilometers. It is running on semi-synthetic Castrol Magnatec and has run about 3000 or so. Is this information useful at all?

3. How does one access the WTS? I hope the head doesnt need opening for this operation? And do you think it went bad or came bad with the new engine?

4. Newbie question: What is AIR?

This is what I have planned at this time:

1. Change the O2 sensor without thinking twice.
2. Check the silencer for any holes and get them mended at once.
3. If possible, fit a Palio 1.2 end can (on the lines of what Joe had suggested - constricting the airflow and giving O2 sensor more time to take measurements.
4. Change driving habits and stay in the 2000-2500 rpm range. Never let the FDCO and anti-knock mechanisms to take over.

So what do you think?

Thank you, again.

Santosh

Santosh, I am glad you want to live, phew.

Regarding the oil I have to say that I do rate Castrol the lowest of oil branded oils. I never use it in my engines at all. I rather push the car. I have very good experiences with Selenia.

The WTS is on the cylinder head and usually fairly easy to access. Removing it can either be done with a deep socket or spanner. Usually the way I do it is losening the old one and having the new one in reach. Then taking the old one out and immedieately cover the hole with one finger and then reach out for the new one and quickly stick it in the thread on slowly hand tighten it. Yhis way you dou not need to bleed the system.

AIR is trademark of GSR Engineering = Air Intake Revision (never thought that I would catch out an Indian on abbreviations. lol). Not to be confused with a CAI.

Before you change the lambda sensor take the cheap option and replace the WTS.

Check whether cat is not partially blocked.

Joe's idea is not working. The more resistance you set against the exhaust the more fuel will be used and at tickover you push out well over 50 cfm of gas or 1500 liters.

This also affects the performance curve.

If the lambda is not working properly the technician will pick it up with the help of the diagnostic equjipment.

Also it is necessary to thrash the car from time to time to clean the combustion chamber out making the car run better.

On the European 1.6 engines the WTS is above the thermostat housing, which is located at the gearbox end.

Usually the WTS is green (the plastic part of it).

Nano fan wrote:

On the European 1.6 engines the WTS is above the thermostat housing, which is located at the gearbox end.

Usually the WTS is green (the plastic part of it).

Before I respond to the very valuable replies to my concerns, I have a question and I am hoping for a good answer:

Drifter, are you in Delhi by any chance? Where have you set up camp in India?

meetsantosh wrote:

Before I respond to the very valuable replies to my concerns, I have a question and I am hoping for a good answer:

Drifter, are you in Delhi by any chance? Where have you set up camp in India?

I don't think you like the answer:

I am, based in europe currently. My attempts to base myself in India have been tampered with by some business partners who made me lose 23lakhs. This forced me to temporarily suspend my activities in India temporarily.

Currently, I am developing a number of items for the Indian market from the UK. Not what I prefer as I am a person who wants to test things myself, but I have to give a lot of credit to my new associates who do a brilliant job in supplying the data to do proper development. It is not only challenging but also quite a bit of fun having to work in a totally different way. Waiting for the confirmation of test results (which work over here) is a bit like the night before Xmas for every little boy/girl.

I am working very hard on coming back in the near future and I will visit Delhi, where I am planning to do something else, which is not automotive related.

kaustubh_vaze wrote:

Hi Santosh,

I have learnt from a person working in FPT that the only difference in the Stile and the old gen GTX is the ECU and the 5th gear.
The Stile ECUs are better programmed (newer generation) and tuned to give better fuel efficiency. You can always give it a try.

Also as Drifter said, if the WTS is just a switch and needs looking into, then probably a well trained and honest technician should be able to give you his diagnosis on the same. If you are getting 8-9 KMPL, your mileage has just about dropped by not more than 1 KMPL.

For getting 12 KMPL, you will need an AIR (Air Intake Revision) and a tuned exhaust designed by Drifter. I am myself waiting in line for the same since I own the Stile 1.6.

Regards,
Kaustubh

Thank you, Kaustubh, for helping out. So if I have to find a Stile ECU, I will probably have to scrounge around the Mayapuri area. I wonder if any stile versions are being scrapped at all.

On the air intake revision and the exhaust let us ask Drifter to spread more light!

Thanks again!

Santosh

Nano fan wrote:

I don't think you like the answer:

I am, based in europe currently. My attempts to base myself in India have been tampered with by some business partners who made me lose 23lakhs. This forced me to temporarily suspend my activities in India temporarily.

Currently, I am developing a number of items for the Indian market from the UK. Not what I prefer as I am a person who wants to test things myself, but I have to give a lot of credit to my new associates who do a brilliant job in supplying the data to do proper development. It is not only challenging but also quite a bit of fun having to work in a totally different way. Waiting for the confirmation of test results (which work over here) is a bit like the night before Xmas for every little boy/girl.

I am working very hard on coming back in the near future and I will visit Delhi, where I am planning to do something else, which is not automotive related.

Ah right. That is a bad bad answer :-(

So here is an update. without the AC, I got a gas mileage above 10 kilometer to a liter. That is 150 kilometers in 14.6 liters of gasoline.

Now the teeny tiny holes in my silencer - how much drop in fuel efficiency must they be creating? Also - once we are up to stock condition - how do we get better figures? What could it take? And what could it cost?

The economics is what this discussion is all about - so how much I put in and what I stand to gain is the primary point of concern.

Drifter - how much should a WTS cost? How many are there in the engine? And should I just change them on suspicion alone?

Also - there was a lot of discussion on PUG about how I should always drive above 2000 RPMs. Do you think that holds water?

Bottom line being - I want to be able to get to 12+ in city with the air conditioning running. and I need all your help.

Thanks again!

Santosh

meetsantosh wrote:

Ah right. That is a bad bad answer :-(

Sorry, I do my best to come back as soon as possible. I am also in process to train people remotely to eventually replace me where ever possible. We have a growing team of specialists in the making.

meetsantosh wrote:

So here is an update. without the AC, I got a gas mileage above 10 kilometer to a liter. That is 150 kilometers in 14.6 liters of gasoline.

I forgot to ask what octane rating you are using. Higher octane rated fuels usually lower fuel consumption. Also a lot of Fiats seem to run better on Esso than Shell.

Another point I was thinking about is the fact that your engine was replaced/rebuilt. Since your engine has interference fit cam pulleys I wonder whether the cam timing has been set correctly. Many mechanics try to fit the pulleys with marking the pulleys. This is because they do not want to buy the cam locking tools. The miss match of the cams I have seen on quite a number of cars have been as much as 7 degrees. This would lower power output and increase fuel consumption too.

Also an observation I made on my Seicento. Fiat delivered it with 155 tires from Debica. I changed them after some time to 165 Nankang tires. The Nankangs were not only gripping a lot better but als increased the mileage from 17 to 19 kpl.

The engine oil as well as the gear box oil being used have an effect on the fuel consumption. However, the viscosity index should not be too low as oil consumption might increase excessively.

Adding Nano energizer to the engine and gearbox will help. I hate the idiot who runs the company in South Korea, but the product is good.

meetsantosh wrote:

Now the teeny tiny holes in my silencer - how much drop in fuel efficiency must they be creating? Also - once we are up to stock condition - how do we get better figures? What could it take? And what could it cost?

Holes in the silencer aren't good news no matter whether small or big. They do affect the pulsing, which can have different knock on effects. But I do not want to go into exhaust system design here as it would make this an never ending post.

Upgrading to a performance exhaust system would aid fuel consumption. However, the question is how many kms you have to drive to offset the investment against the fuel saving?

meetsantosh wrote:

The economics is what this discussion is all about - so how much I put in and what I stand to gain is the primary point of concern.

I agree, which is the reason why I usually ask to hold the horses. We are going through a process of elimination.

Before looking into measures to lower fuel consumption it is necessary to make sure that everything is alright in the first place.

I also would refuse to do performance tuning on a car that is not in good condition.

With the air intake revisions I design we usually get between 4 and 9% fuel savings. The highest we ever measured was 11% on average. Again, it depends on the state of the engine. Adding a re-map to it that is giving performance and economy at the same time will set you back about 30k. Whether the expense is worth your primarily set target, I can't answer.

meetsantosh wrote:

Drifter - how much should a WTS cost? How many are there in the engine? And should I just change them on suspicion alone?

I pad the last time in the UK about 400 Rupees. I would change it in any case as they tend to go after a while.

meetsantosh wrote:

Also - there was a lot of discussion on PUG about how I should always drive above 2000 RPMs. Do you think that holds water?

Every engine needs from time to time a good B-road blast.It is good for cleaning it out and the engines will run better and more efficient.

For fuel efficient driving it is required to shift gears as early as possible. You can cruise from about 1500rpm except going uphill where I would advise to go higher.

At lower rpm the engine runs more efficient because the combustion is earlier completed in relation to the crankshaft angle resulting in a higher expansion pressure. Also the drag of the drive train does not weigh in as heavy at the same speed in each higher gear.

meetsantosh wrote:

Bottom line being - I want to be able to get to 12+ in city with the air conditioning running.

Your request is not impossible and neither unreasonable. At the same token it is some work required to do so as described before. But howc much is it worth to you? I have a different agenda, which means that it might be more or less worth for me than you. This brings us to the point where thsat discussion really starts and we can develop the car to any stage you like.

Hi Santosh,

To start with, I would request you to fix the silencer first. The small holes do affect fuel economy as experienced by a number of people in PUG. So please fix that and the WTS and see what you are gaining.

My Stile had a small crack developed in the intake hose and it affected fuel economy to an extent. I had to tape it to get it fixed.

So small steps at a time in conjunction with properly running in your new engine.
After that we can think of a well designed AIR and exhaust (I will get them for you from Peter).

Regards,
Kaustubh

Nano fan wrote:

Sorry, I do my best to come back as soon as possible. I am also in process to train people remotely to eventually replace me where ever possible. We have a growing team of specialists in the making.

I forgot to ask what octane rating you are using. Higher octane rated fuels usually lower fuel consumption. Also a lot of Fiats seem to run better on Esso than Shell.

Another point I was thinking about is the fact that your engine was replaced/rebuilt. Since your engine has interference fit cam pulleys I wonder whether the cam timing has been set correctly. Many mechanics try to fit the pulleys with marking the pulleys. This is because they do not want to buy the cam locking tools. The miss match of the cams I have seen on quite a number of cars have been as much as 7 degrees. This would lower power output and increase fuel consumption too.

Also an observation I made on my Seicento. Fiat delivered it with 155 tires from Debica. I changed them after some time to 165 Nankang tires. The Nankangs were not only gripping a lot better but als increased the mileage from 17 to 19 kpl.

The engine oil as well as the gear box oil being used have an effect on the fuel consumption. However, the viscosity index should not be too low as oil consumption might increase excessively.

Adding Nano energizer to the engine and gearbox will help. I hate the idiot who runs the company in South Korea, but the product is good.

Holes in the silencer aren't good news no matter whether small or big. They do affect the pulsing, which can have different knock on effects. But I do not want to go into exhaust system design here as it would make this an never ending post.

Upgrading to a performance exhaust system would aid fuel consumption. However, the question is how many kms you have to drive to offset the investment against the fuel saving?

I agree, which is the reason why I usually ask to hold the horses. We are going through a process of elimination.

Before looking into measures to lower fuel consumption it is necessary to make sure that everything is alright in the first place.

I also would refuse to do performance tuning on a car that is not in good condition.

With the air intake revisions I design we usually get between 4 and 9% fuel savings. The highest we ever measured was 11% on average. Again, it depends on the state of the engine. Adding a re-map to it that is giving performance and economy at the same time will set you back about 30k. Whether the expense is worth your primarily set target, I can't answer.

I pad the last time in the UK about 400 Rupees. I would change it in any case as they tend to go after a while.

Every engine needs from time to time a good B-road blast.It is good for cleaning it out and the engines will run better and more efficient.

For fuel efficient driving it is required to shift gears as early as possible. You can cruise from about 1500rpm except going uphill where I would advise to go higher.

At lower rpm the engine runs more efficient because the combustion is earlier completed in relation to the crankshaft angle resulting in a higher expansion pressure. Also the drag of the drive train does not weigh in as heavy at the same speed in each higher gear.

Your request is not impossible and neither unreasonable. At the same token it is some work required to do so as described before. But howc much is it worth to you? I have a different agenda, which means that it might be more or less worth for me than you. This brings us to the point where thsat discussion really starts and we can develop the car to any stage you like.

So I do not know how to insert my comments inside another post but I'll ty and remain organized:

1. Please, when you come to Delhi next, do let me know. Also, if you can, introduce me to a a few of the people you trust with car mods and car health in general. I am sure the ones you trust must be good at what they do :-)

2. I am using the 89 octane standard fuel with System G. I am told that if I add System G, I do not have to go or the 91 octane fuel.

3. I know that setting the cams is quite a task with this engine. And the mechanic who did that has been with fiat for a while so he says he has done it right. But how can I be sure?

4. How do I get hold of some Nano Energizer?

5. Yes. I understand. Filling the holes is priority number one now. Consider that done. How does one make sure that there are no holes anymore? This time i am going to personally oversee the silencer repair.

6. I agree again. First the car has to be in perfect stock condition before we go any further. The engine is stock so I am betting that is no problem. But the other things like the WTS and the silencer need to be checked and corrected. The economics are, of course, the center of this entire conversation.

7. I am willing to spend 15 maybe 20k (Indian Rupees please!) on this project. 30k will become a project and thus be put off for later. Like I said before - i plan on living and so I plan on keeping the S10. For a minimum of three years. So yes i am willing to put time and energy into her. And the Vitamin M as well. Drifter - I need a doctor in new Delhi, someone you trust, who can look at the car and tell me what else may need a repair or replacement. I did this with Bosch service. It set me back by 55k and frankly the workmanship was shoddy.

8. 400 Indian Rupees sounds nice! How many are there in the engine?

9. So all that talk about the Fiat engine pumping fuel while decelerating below 2000 rpms was not true? The 2000 rpm mark has no value? And i should just try and stay at 1500?

10. It is worth a lot to me - being able to drive it and not think about the FE all the time. I wish to keep it and I wish to restore it to its absolute best condition. And build from there. And I am serious about it. So now?

Thanks so much!

Santosh

kaustubh_vaze wrote:

Hi Santosh,

To start with, I would request you to fix the silencer first. The small holes do affect fuel economy as experienced by a number of people in PUG. So please fix that and the WTS and see what you are gaining.

My Stile had a small crack developed in the intake hose and it affected fuel economy to an extent. I had to tape it to get it fixed.

So small steps at a time in conjunction with properly running in your new engine.
After that we can think of a well designed AIR and exhaust (I will get them for you from Peter).

Regards,
Kaustubh

Dear Kaustubh,

Thanks again for your help. Yes! The silencer is priority one now. Also the WTS(s). I am also hopeful that the running in will help. so I may get better figures after the second oil change. But that's a couple thousand kilometers away.

Yes - a well designed AIR and Exhaust sounds like a dream. A slightly scary one money wise but we will figure something.

Thanks again!

Santosh

Hi Santosh,
After you get the exhaust fixed, check the fuel economy. There should be a definite improvement.

Here's a small experiment which I have done successfully in Petrol cars:
Get hold of laboratory grade acetone and add 2.5 ml per litre of petrol. Eg. For 10 lit. of Petrol, you need to add 25 ml to the tank.
This has worked great for me. It will help clean injectors if they are clogged and will help evaporate petrol quicker and burn it completely giving you good fuel economy.

A little more or less wouldn't hurt so you dont need to be extra careful.

There are a number of people who can vouch for it including Sameer Ajgaonkar from PUG as well.
Let me know how it goes.

Regards,
Kaustubh

meetsantosh wrote:

Nano fan wrote:

Sorry, I do my best to come back as soon as possible. I am also in process to train people remotely to eventually replace me where ever possible. We have a growing team of specialists in the making.

I forgot to ask what octane rating you are using. Higher octane rated fuels usually lower fuel consumption. Also a lot of Fiats seem to run better on Esso than Shell.

Another point I was thinking about is the fact that your engine was replaced/rebuilt. Since your engine has interference fit cam pulleys I wonder whether the cam timing has been set correctly. Many mechanics try to fit the pulleys with marking the pulleys. This is because they do not want to buy the cam locking tools. The miss match of the cams I have seen on quite a number of cars have been as much as 7 degrees. This would lower power output and increase fuel consumption too.

Also an observation I made on my Seicento. Fiat delivered it with 155 tires from Debica. I changed them after some time to 165 Nankang tires. The Nankangs were not only gripping a lot better but als increased the mileage from 17 to 19 kpl.

The engine oil as well as the gear box oil being used have an effect on the fuel consumption. However, the viscosity index should not be too low as oil consumption might increase excessively.

Adding Nano energizer to the engine and gearbox will help. I hate the idiot who runs the company in South Korea, but the product is good.

Holes in the silencer aren't good news no matter whether small or big. They do affect the pulsing, which can have different knock on effects. But I do not want to go into exhaust system design here as it would make this an never ending post.

Upgrading to a performance exhaust system would aid fuel consumption. However, the question is how many kms you have to drive to offset the investment against the fuel saving?

I agree, which is the reason why I usually ask to hold the horses. We are going through a process of elimination.

Before looking into measures to lower fuel consumption it is necessary to make sure that everything is alright in the first place.

I also would refuse to do performance tuning on a car that is not in good condition.

With the air intake revisions I design we usually get between 4 and 9% fuel savings. The highest we ever measured was 11% on average. Again, it depends on the state of the engine. Adding a re-map to it that is giving performance and economy at the same time will set you back about 30k. Whether the expense is worth your primarily set target, I can't answer.

I pad the last time in the UK about 400 Rupees. I would change it in any case as they tend to go after a while.

Every engine needs from time to time a good B-road blast.It is good for cleaning it out and the engines will run better and more efficient.

For fuel efficient driving it is required to shift gears as early as possible. You can cruise from about 1500rpm except going uphill where I would advise to go higher.

At lower rpm the engine runs more efficient because the combustion is earlier completed in relation to the crankshaft angle resulting in a higher expansion pressure. Also the drag of the drive train does not weigh in as heavy at the same speed in each higher gear.

Your request is not impossible and neither unreasonable. At the same token it is some work required to do so as described before. But howc much is it worth to you? I have a different agenda, which means that it might be more or less worth for me than you. This brings us to the point where thsat discussion really starts and we can develop the car to any stage you like.

So I do not know how to insert my comments inside another post but I'll ty and remain organized:

1. Please, when you come to Delhi next, do let me know. Also, if you can, introduce me to a a few of the people you trust with car mods and car health in general. I am sure the ones you trust must be good at what they do :-)

2. I am using the 89 octane standard fuel with System G. I am told that if I add System G, I do not have to go or the 91 octane fuel.

3. I know that setting the cams is quite a task with this engine. And the mechanic who did that has been with fiat for a while so he says he has done it right. But how can I be sure?

4. How do I get hold of some Nano Energizer?

5. Yes. I understand. Filling the holes is priority number one now. Consider that done. How does one make sure that there are no holes anymore? This time i am going to personally oversee the silencer repair.

6. I agree again. First the car has to be in perfect stock condition before we go any further. The engine is stock so I am betting that is no problem. But the other things like the WTS and the silencer need to be checked and corrected. The economics are, of course, the center of this entire conversation.

7. I am willing to spend 15 maybe 20k (Indian Rupees please!) on this project. 30k will become a project and thus be put off for later. Like I said before - i plan on living and so I plan on keeping the S10. For a minimum of three years. So yes i am willing to put time and energy into her. And the Vitamin M as well. Drifter - I need a doctor in new Delhi, someone you trust, who can look at the car and tell me what else may need a repair or replacement. I did this with Bosch service. It set me back by 55k and frankly the workmanship was shoddy.

8. 400 Indian Rupees sounds nice! How many are there in the engine?

9. So all that talk about the Fiat engine pumping fuel while decelerating below 2000 rpms was not true? The 2000 rpm mark has no value? And i should just try and stay at 1500?

10. It is worth a lot to me - being able to drive it and not think about the FE all the time. I wish to keep it and I wish to restore it to its absolute best condition. And build from there. And I am serious about it. So now?

Thanks so much!

Santosh

BUMP!

kaustubh_vaze wrote:

Hi Santosh,
After you get the exhaust fixed, check the fuel economy. There should be a definite improvement.

Here's a small experiment which I have done successfully in Petrol cars:
Get hold of laboratory grade acetone and add 2.5 ml per litre of petrol. Eg. For 10 lit. of Petrol, you need to add 25 ml to the tank.
This has worked great for me. It will help clean injectors if they are clogged and will help evaporate petrol quicker and burn it completely giving you good fuel economy.

A little more or less wouldn't hurt so you dont need to be extra careful.

There are a number of people who can vouch for it including Sameer Ajgaonkar from PUG as well.
Let me know how it goes.

Regards,
Kaustubh

Thanks again, Kaustubh,

And acetone will not have adverse effects like that of kerosene? If not - this is worth a try! Have you tried it? What results did you get?

Thanks!

Santosh

meetsantosh wrote:

So I do not know how to insert my comments inside another post but I'll ty and remain organized:

The way I do it is possibly not the most advanced one, but it works. I cope the quote and paste and then delete each time what I do not need.

meetsantosh wrote:

1. Please, when you come to Delhi next, do let me know. Also, if you can, introduce me to a a few of the people you trust with car mods and car health in general. I am sure the ones you trust must be good at what they do :-)

I sure will let you know when I will come to Delhi. After all I will do some filming there.

Currently I do not have anyone who I trust in your area. However, I am searching and we will train up some people to our standards for working together with us.

meetsantosh wrote:

2. I am using the 89 octane standard fuel with System G. I am told that if I add System G, I do not have to go or the 91 octane fuel.

89 octane never was sold on our shores and 91 octane is getting rare now. The higher the octane rating the lower the consumption will be. Question is whether the lower fuel consumption can make up for the higher fuel price.

When using higher octane rating, the compression ratio can be increased, which again lowers fuel consumption. Whether compression ratio is or is not increased with higher rated fuel optimising the ignition timing will help lowering fuel consumption again.

meetsantosh wrote:

3. I know that setting the cams is quite a task with this engine. And the mechanic who did that has been with fiat for a while so he says he has done it right. But how can I be sure?

Setting the cams is actually quite easy. All you need is the cam locking tools, which a lot of mechanics do not want to buy just to save a bit of money. The usually try to mark the pulleys, but it never works. We got a lot of cars, where the cam timing was set this way after timing belt change and the cam riming was out from 5 degrees, which makes a big difference.

meetsantosh wrote:

4. How do I get hold of some Nano Energizer?

There is a guy on gearheads with the user name of'eapen' He should be able to directe you and otherwise there is some ebay suppliers.

meetsantosh wrote:

5. Yes. I understand. Filling the holes is priority number one now. Consider that done. How does one make sure that there are no holes anymore? This time i am going to personally oversee the silencer repair.

You will be able to hear the difference. Every hole makes the makes the exhaust sound different.

meetsantosh wrote:

6. I agree again. First the car has to be in perfect stock condition before we go any further. The engine is stock so I am betting that is no problem. But the other things like the WTS and the silencer need to be checked and corrected. The economics are, of course, the center of this entire conversation.

I do not want to claim that the engine is at fault. However, I do not claim that the engine is fine either. Since you have identified at least one problem it should be solved first, before we look at potential other problems.

meetsantosh wrote:

7. I am willing to spend 15 maybe 20k (Indian Rupees please!) on this project. 30k will become a project and thus be put off for later. Like I said before - i plan on living and so I plan on keeping the S10. For a minimum of three years. So yes i am willing to put time and energy into her. And the Vitamin M as well. Drifter - I need a doctor in new Delhi, someone you trust, who can look at the car and tell me what else may need a repair or replacement. I did this with Bosch service. It set me back by 55k and frankly the workmanship was shoddy.

We are working on a doctor for you. In the meantime we help you here on the forum and you will be able to do a lot of things yourself. I know that in Ahmedabad is an independent Palio specialist.

meetsantosh wrote:

8. 400 Indian Rupees sounds nice! How many are there in the engine?

Just 1.

meetsantosh wrote:

9. So all that talk about the Fiat engine pumping fuel while decelerating below 2000 rpms was not true? The 2000 rpm mark has no value? And i should just try and stay at 1500?

The earlier you shift gears, the better it is for fuel consumption. Most of the cars can be driven at 1500rpm. At times you need to go for a proper blast to burn the engine clean.

Otherwise it is good to keep the speed constant while in traffic. Don't try to close a gap when you can avoid it because this means every time an acceleration phase, which consumes the most fuel.

meetsantosh wrote:

10. It is worth a lot to me - being able to drive it and not think about the FE all the time. I wish to keep it and I wish to restore it to its absolute best condition. And build from there. And I am serious about it. So now?

Santosh, I am going to give my best to help you achieve this.

Hi Santosh,
Acetone has a positive effect on the way your fuel burns. We have immersed engine parts and fuel pump and rubber hoses in 100% acetone and found no detrimental effect on the said parts.

Also you are adding 2.5 ML per 1000 ML of petrol so its nothing. Acetone will help the fuel evaporate faster and also help the fuel burn cleaner and faster as well. So yes, it works very well.

I have tried it many times on the Palio and found it to be very effective.

Nowadays I am not able to source it on a regular basis from my nearby stores, so have not used it for the past couple of months.

Always ask for 100% lab grade acetone. If you are able to premix it, it will be good.

Regards,
Kaustubh

Take wife's nail varnish remover. But it might prove expensive.

Hey Nano Fan - It might be expensive and nowadays these nail varnish removers are fortified with Vitamin E and so on. Engine might not like vitamin E!!